firstly, your view that only upper caste judges are favoring this policy is totally biased and it even questions our judicial system - its probably an insult to the judiciary.

secondly, mr. veeramani, there is no question of introducing creamy layer in upper caste because there is no reservation out there. there is a greater need to introducing in BC layer because anybody and everybody is being categorized into the BC layer. ideally it has to be introduced in both BC and SC/ST layers.

thirdly, mr. veramani ( and mr murugan since you were nodding to it), just because some concept was discussed earlier doesn't make it unnecessary to discuss now. if that is the case then constitution will not have the need for amendments. laws have to change with times as and when there are loopholes being identified. for that matter the reservation was strictly meant to be only for 10years and had a cap of 50% - havent all these things been discussed, re-discussed, amended and in some cases even violated?? linking it to my first point ... so, in one case you find it okay because some nadar community or your children get the benefits or it simply helps you play caste politics but in other cases you dont want to open this issue again (and blame that on upper caste judges??)

creamy layer is essential - it might work against your children but you need to be magnanimous and share the benefits. Otherwise, guys like MK, laloo, etc will goble up every single benefit. Mr. Murugn please ... you can't blame social backwardness to the infighting among MK's family members. the gandhi family (who is forward) had the similar infighting issues too.

also, just because a person's income is undefinable because of poor tax collection schemes doesn't mean we willingly waste tax dollars on the wrong individuals.

Mr.irulandy,
The point made here is that the reservation benefits accorded to OBCs is based on the provisions of the Constitution. The framers of our constitution took stock of social and educational coditions of the population and debated in depth about the criteia necessary to develop the socially disadvantaged groups. The social and educational backwardness were decided to be addressed and the economic backwardness was not, repeat not, considered at all. This is not an oversight, but a clear decision by the framers of the Constitution.
Now the Supreme Court is supposed to go into this question not on the merits, but on the basis of whether the current reservation policy militates against the provision of the Constitution or not. It would appear that the Court wishes to go into the merit of the benefits of reservation going to the economically advanced among the OBCs. I am afraid, it is the duty of the Legislature to go into this question.
Also, the concept of " creamy layer" subsumes the economic criteria which has once been denied by the framers of our Constitution.
But I am with you when you say that such views are not perennnial and unmutable. But who has to change it? definitely not the Courts.
Regards

Mr murugan
I appreciate for your response. I would like to comment on this aspect of your statement
"It would appear that the Court wishes to go into the merit of the benefits of reservation going to the economically advanced among the OBCs. I am afraid, it is the duty of the Legislature to go into this question."

1. it appears that you don't question the concept of "creamy layer" - maybe it appears logical to you (as it does to me) but question the fact that the courts are pursuing it and not the legislature
2. As for who should take it up - to me, it doesn't matter as long as it seems correct. I guess some legal expert of the stature of Palkivala could answer that question. I wish that you refer to Mr. Cho Ramaswamy but ... god forbid if he says anything then Veramani will give it the "papanar" color

The very purpose of reservations in the minds of the member of the Constitutional Assembly was to advance the BC and SC/ST. We are refusing to acknowledge that a layer has advanced so much that it should be added to the FC so that more seats will be available to the balance of BC. I understand that still a long ways to go before a level playing ground is established for the BC and SC/ST. The best way to accelarate the momentum is to take the Creamy Layer out of the BC pool.
We can not reward mediocrity in BC for ever. The reservation system entrap them into this system for ever. Is there a time table for this reservation to end? Did the Framers of the Constitution have a time table in mind?
We are responsible citizens of India and took responsibility for the social evils that prevailed at the time of Independence. This is Laudable Solution and we have lived up to the promise.
Now, policitians are trying to include Islam and Christianity into the reservation pool since they get large contributions to their party and to Tamil Cinema world.
Who is the guardian angel for the down and under in the Upper class? They do not have Politicians to back them up except the Judiciary. And, now we hate the Judiciary because it is playing a fair game.
Jai Sri Ram
Sampath

reservation is THE choice for the upliftment .it's ridiculous to ask how long the OBC'S need reservation? bcos OBC'S are still fighting for their right ,even after 50 yrs. still reservation in higher instiution is only a dream.whn it is not even startd , they r askng whn wil u end? secondily, backward ness is social backward ness ,why should economy is considered (creamy layer)? if people want to think in that terms ,then let's start creamy layer in OC first for some time ,then let's try it n other categories. voice for creamy layer has not come from anyone in OBC,but only upper caste are trying to put it there. let the OBC'S decide what they want and upper caste who have suppressed them for so many years should not comment on it. it's like a carnivorous animal preachng ahimsa and vegetarianism.do these people know that more than 2/3 rd of the judges in supreme court are FC'S.

reservation is THE choice for the upliftment .it's ridiculous to ask how long the OBC'S need reservation? bcos OBC'S are still fighting for their right ,even after 50 yrs. still reservation in higher instiution is only a dream.whn it is not even startd , they r askng whn wil u end? secondily, backward ness is social backward ness ,why should economy is considered (creamy layer)? if people want to think in that terms ,then let's start creamy layer in OC first for some time ,then let's try it n other categories. voice for creamy layer has not come from anyone in OBC,but only upper caste are trying to put it there. let the OBC'S decide what they want and upper caste who have suppressed them for so many years should not comment on it. it's like a carnivorous animal preachng ahimsa and vegetarianism.do these people know that more than 2/3 rd of the judges in supreme court are FC'S, then how come other communities will have faith in judiciary regarding cases of reservation.

reservation is THE choice for the upliftment .it's ridiculous to ask how long the OBC'S need reservation? bcos OBC'S are still fighting for their right ,even after 50 yrs. still reservation in higher instiution is only a dream.whn it is not even startd , they r askng whn wil u end? secondily, backward ness is social backward ness ,why should economy is considered (creamy layer)? if people want to think in that terms ,then let's start creamy layer in OC first for some time ,then let's try it n other categories. voice for creamy layer has not come from anyone in OBC,but only upper caste are trying to put it there. let the OBC'S decide what they want and upper caste who have suppressed them for so many years should not comment on it. it's like a carnivorous animal preachng ahimsa and vegetarianism.do these people know that only one OBC President(jail singh-apart from muslims) and only one SC/ST(K.R.NARAYAN) so far and at present more than 2/3 rd of the judges in supreme court are FC'S, then how come other communities will have faith in judiciary regarding cases of reservation.let implement reservation in all including education in higher institution for some time.then let's think about stopping it. meanwhile let it be reviewed every 5 years till expected progress is made.equality would come only if the existing inequalities are levelled,for it to happen reservation should continue.mr.veeramani is very much right.

with regards,
jagan babu palaniappan

mr jagan babu
you are missing the point here - either deliberately or unconciously. the reservation system is required we all agree. we also agree that not all BC's have gained from the reservation system - thats why we need to segment those who have already gained through the system for 2 or 3 generations. Now, no community wants to give up their caste titles - be it big shots like shiv nadar or some sc/st who has really been downtrodden - the govt itself wants you to stick to this by asking people to state their castes in the 10th standard records onwards (like to fight that??). So, the only way to segment the haves with the have-nots is through their economic gains they have through the reservation structure (if you have better ideas - please share).
Just that a blanket rule that everyone can get the freebies regardless of their current class is un-acceptable.

reg. your views that the judges are FCs and so this ruling is not acceptable or any suggestions made by them is to be declined - then for that matter, this was the situation in 1947 too. infact, during that period majority of legislators were FCs too - how come you are okay with the reservation system passed then?

The Indian constitution has been reduced to the status of a Municipal Licensing Act, which is changed every six months according to each caste-voting groups coalition politics. Not only that, there are over 283 Acts which have been introduced into the Ninth Schedule of the Constitution. By the way, what is the definition of "social backwardness"? How is Mr. Palaniappan Chidambaram, a Nattukottai Chettiar, a "socially backward" person? And why were Nattukottai Chettiars considered a Forward Caste until 1994, and then suddenly became "backward"?

In a democracy, checks and balances are needed. The constitution ensures that all citizens are treated equally before the law. That is the reason even reservations, which are a fundamental tool of inequality, have been capped at 49.5% because in a democratic society, inequality cannot dominate. However, the TN Govt has shown complete disregard for democracy, and has devolved into a mobocracy. In a mobocracy, the majority can always vote themselves other people's efforts. This has a tendency to weaken democracy because the affected people will either try to escape from the system, or, if cornered, may resort to armed resistance. The Sri Lankan Tamils, who are a minority in Sri Lanka, are facing exactly this same issue. It is extremely hypocritical of Mr. Veeramani to criticise the Sri Lankan Govt which is doing the same thing to the Sri Lankan Tamils as Mr. Veeramani is advocating for certain other Tamils in TN.

I find the comments by the reverred Veeramani as only fodder for his own political advantage. It neither represents the well being of the OCs or OBCs. He would certainly change his tact, the moment he reaches a constituency where the majority is the upper caste and would give a different version on reservices by stating that the economically backward people from upper caste must have reservations.

He has not been honest in his comments as these are only political and votebank comments.

Why does he keep insisting to quote from the Constitution at the time it was framed. If Constitution framed was to be accepted in toto where there have been so many amendments to the Constitution. Can Veeramani answer to these question.

Does he continue with the same constitutional framework that was originally formulated for his party at the time of its formation by its founder. Have they not changed it?

He must realize that there are only two divisions in the population that is inherent and cannot be changed i.e. the male and female; everything else is transformable and changeable.

In this world of economic strata the only way you get dignity and respect by being economically equal to others.

If caste system is to be removed today by the government totalling changing its attitude and no one uses the titles as Iyer, Iyengar, Pillai, Nadar etc. etc., people in a short span of 15-20 years would forget to which such and such person belongs to. People will begin to discriminate based only on economic status.

This discrimination, if it happens, will be the machine that would develop the society as a whole. Unfortunately, today's politician does not want this to begin in the society as the economic backwardness is the fodder for their kind of politics.

There are umpteen number of cases, where A GROOM from a socially backward community, but economically upward, loved and married a BRIDE from an equally economically upward but uppercaste community without raising any problems. These people continue to live happily and social visits are exchanged between the familities from two communities.
Had the GROOM been from an economically and socially backward community, the BRIDEs family would have gone for a KILL. But in these instances not only did these not happen but the marriages were clebrity marriages and eulogised even as social barrier breaking events that should be continually encouraged and appreciated.

Coming back to framing constitution by Dr.Ambedkar and other Luminaries who were regarded as authorities on the merits of their forward looking and visionary characteristics, why Veermani and friends continue to support and change constitution when it suits them. Are they not actually insulting those large hearted luminaries of yester years by doing so?

What we need is an economically engineering machinery that is put into operation in an integrated way to socially uplift the society as a whole.

Veermani and his likes will not support such a transformation because once it happens then their need for the society ends and their means of amassing ill gotten wealth dries up.